I have seen and heard similar situations but like everyone else is
saying... consider the source. Teens will throw insults at each other
for attention and they realize that when it "gets someones goat", they
keep doing it and since they run out of things to say, they start the "mother"
insults or worse...

Actually I think its very laughable because it would seem that kids can
be more vicious than even most adults.. :lol:

I also agree that the insults were probably being tossed around due to
society coming to realize that the lifestyle exists... perhaps one of them
actually was zoo and the other found out but again, it was only insults and
not actual physical harm being done which also shows a little more tolerance
to it than what used to be.

In the town I used to live in many years ago, I was known as "Horse F****r"
but you know what?... some of the people who called me that only did so behind
my back and we would still drink beer and go out and have fun together... so
they must not have thought it too bad.
Usually I would just ignore the insults or would come back with a better reply
that would generally make them shut up and think a little :lol:

Anyhow... its bad when things like that happen... not just the zoo insults but all
insults in general... they will learn as they grow and if not, they will feel by
someone who won't take it from them.

The main problem with society's younger generation is that most of the parents
who's kids do this sort of thing are not really caring parents and don't correct
their kids like they need or should. It is in the bringing up plus, with the way
the agencies say you can't repremand your kids, its no wonder they are running
over the parents and doing as they please... in my day, I would have gotten
my arse whooped really good for insulting people like that and I would have been
made to appologize right to their faces... that is what needs done today... :D

:D

Couldn't have said it better myself InLuvWithEwe... I seriously think that parents are just losing track of anything and everything that their kids get into. When they do things like that, to insult or otherwise, it needs to be recognized and they should be punished accordingly. And not that slap on the wrist crap either,a good beating, just as I would have gotten. (I'm not saying go beat children...because that's wrong... So don't get the wrong idea. Just when it's called for and in a semi-humane manner)

I'm not easaly offended so it doesn't really bother me. If it becomes personal however, then it's a different matter.

I'm certain you don't mean that children should be 'beat' in order to give them punishment.

But a spanking, or other form of physical contact that teaches them that something they have done is unnacceptable is better than being told (by someone who doesn't know you, your family, your child - how to raise your child) that you cannot punish them anymore..

Certainly children need to learn concequences, without fear of abuse, or serious beatings.


On a side note, I've been watching some of the shows discussing Michael Jackson's upbringing. They really screwed him up BAD. THey went far too overboard with the punishments and beatings.


There is a point when it becomes too much and it isn't teaching the child anything but their parents hate them.


Back on track - Even if it's degrading in their eyes, even if it's an insult, in the eyes of children (Those teens) to call someone a dog f'r, there is a reason for it. I dont' think it's because they are necessarily ignorant or uneducated. On the contrary, I believe they have been taught that touching your pet in a sexual manner is unnacceptable. I think they are doing what they have been taught, to reject certain behaviors and as a norm it's illegal - what are they doing wrong by teasing each other with something that is illegal? They could be saying.. "You store robber! You ugly rapist!" Just because they say something doesn't mean it's true.


Also,
You mentioned that they are already set in their ways about the subject. I don't think they are. Lots of people find other things in life much later than high school. They even learn to approach new and old subjects with a new understanding of the world around them. Such as, looking at the subject of loving an animal on a deeper level that includes lovemaking - with a maturity that is only gained by experiencing life.

They haven't yet.. they are under the protection of their parents, but will soon be learning some difficult life lessons. And, I think our society really has it's priorities messed up. Yah, it's the parents job to raise the child.. when? These days you can barely survive if you don't hve both parents working full time jobs. Any more, jobs don't want to hire full time, they don't want to give benefits for health care and insurance.. and they like to cut back alot when you need your money the most in order to survive. When you work all the hours you need to, your working LONG hours.. and in my experience those jobs are a bit of a distance away from home. Drive time - work hours, lunch break, more work hours, drive time home, shopping time to get the supplies you need to live, doing errands for paying bills etc.. and making dinner... WHEN do you have time to sit down with your kid and really get to know them, talk about what is going on in their life, and sit down and talk with them about something that happened. (That you weren't there for? How did you find out? DID you even find out about half the stuff your kid does?)

It's a difficult time for humans to be able to accomplish all the stuff they need to get done. We are rushing around with our heads cut off yelling at each other because we aren't doing what each other thinks we ought to have been doing and trying to keep our species going.

I'm sure the issue is due to too many little factors to really blame it on any specific thing, other than... "It just isn't accepted yet, and if you DO come out of the dark about it, your going to get persecuted for it. So just hold tight and wait things out"

Don't be hurt by it.. let them live in ignorance and you can go on about your day knowing you know something special about life. That some animals like having sex with their human friends just as much if not more, than we do with them. Case in point, someone posted about their dog growling at them and keeping them pinned down until he was finished with them!

If this can happen.. and the dog is peachy after sex? Then it isn't necessarily a human always forcing themselves on an animal.

The bad thing about humans wanting rights for their animals, is that Animals can't express themselves like humans, nor are they as attached to a single being for their entire lives. It isn't coded into them. How many dogs bust out of the house or yard and go on a sex spree!? How many dogs do they 'run around with' during that freedom run? Would they leave their canine companion who they also try to get things on with at home while they go looking for love where the grass is greener?

Animals aren't as attached as humans are. As a general statement. Of course there will be exceptions.. but I don't see things changing all at once or really soon.

Sorry for the long, probably confusing post. It's way way past my bedtime but I thought I'd check in first. :)

This post has been edited by Anubisgirl on Apr 14 2006, 11:31 AM

[QUOTE=Anubisgirl,Apr 14 2006, 11:29 AM] [QUOTE=XxXWhite_WolfXxX,Apr 13 2006, 09:07 PM] Couldn't have said it better myself InLuvWithEwe... I seriously think that parents are just losing track of anything and everything that their kids get into. When they do things like that, to insult or otherwise, it needs to be recognized and they should be punished accordingly. And not that slap on the wrist crap either,a good beating, just as I would have gotten. (I'm not saying go beat children...because that's wrong... So don't get the wrong idea. Just when it's called for and in a semi-humane manner)

I wrote the next paragraph in this letter last and realized that it more responsibly belonged at the beginning:

"Ok Ive gone bonkers here...Im not in the least bit contrary about this. I love the contributions. Im the type to get into the nitty gritty on certain issues, and I dont want anyone to mistake my 'tone' of post to reflect in anyway at them. When i start get going The opinions and referencing start flowing. Im contesting a philosophy against the another philosophy. Thats where my attention is as I write this.


Corporal punishment is unnecessary. Plenty of individuals of all walks, plenty of cultures around the world, plenty of animal 'owners' have raised wonderful children and animals without ever having to resort to ritual pain infliction. Spanking may work, just as electric shocks can be used to make rats do the fandango works, but its not necessary. People poo-poo modern child rearing theory, and perhaps a good chunk of it is dung!

But the consensus of most fields of science that inquire into this subject(and that range is vast!) is that corporal punishment is unnecessary.
Lots of parents are sensitive to this issue. I dont blame them. Im against any corporal punishment but I dont say anything to parents who are being pretty mild about it - which seems to be the majority - at least in public. In short; it just doesnt work. People, especially parents, will often closely model their own parents and how their parents raised them. Tradition, and the expectations of others that we follow it, make it hard to adapt to techniques which dont seem to fit in with local life.

There are those salt of the earth folkoric sayings that people turn to when frustrated with a child.
Like: "Nothing a good beating(spanking) wouldnt help".
But they really dont want to help. What they want is to instill a 'healthy respect for authority' in someone who is rubbing it the wrong way.
The Medium (pain) is the message. Its not "Dont do that thing again". It becomes " You crossed my authority" its largely where a lot of buried resentment of kids to their parents lies. The other one is hypocrisy, which is really really bad to have if your punishing over that issue ie doing what you punished the kid over.
But they come from the same playbook on how people used to treat their animals as a matter of course. Pretty roughly, rudely and thoughtlessly, and definitely using corporal punishment as [b] the means [/i] of behavior inducement. Whip cracking...hell the term 'carrot and stick' comes from horse training. Its been well demonstrated that actual 'punishment' is unnecessary. Corporal Punishment; that is: ritually induced pain for 'corrective' purposes...I say 'ritually' because it happens after the 'bad' behavior, this turns the act into a ritual act meant to stand in for 'painful consequences' that didnt occur at the time that whatever was bad was done.

I think it comes from the same playbook on how woman used to be 'handled' by their husband. The very notion that a wife is just one of a man's menagerie that he 'husbands' (animal husbandry) tells a lot. And though the the phrase 'rule of thumb' didnt actually apply to the thickness of a stick acceptable to beat your wife with, there's plenty of 'true spirit' behind it. Arnt we glad (and I do mean we , even as a man) that has become socially unacceptable if not culturally yet.

I think it comes from the same playbook of how workers are treated around the world. Up till close to the middle of the last century employers in America regularly beat their employees for 'bad behavior' Then there were the African men and women, and the playbook was printed with detailed specifics on 'proper' corporal punishment to acheive best results, amongst all kinds of other 'fascinating' 'helpful' chapters from their care and maintainance manuals . (To see this in a very imortant very intense film see "Mandingo." )

Violence works. (Spanking, in my books at least, is ultimately violence.) The above illustrates this all too well.
But it is also unecessary. Thats been clearly illustrated too. I hope that people will ask themselves and think about for a few days whether or not hitting is truly necessary.
and if you feel that it must be, then problems probably run deeper than even pain conditioning can help or any 'method' from a book. The problem is now particular to the people involved and getting some trained help (priest to AA counselor) would probably yield far better results.
Plenty of great people were spanked as kids too, sometimes it may indeed be harmless to helpful. But all to often it isnt. Its a risky enterprise.

Keep on sewing the thread!

SD



PS Im not too hard to knock off my perch you know!

This post has been edited by Singing Dog on Apr 15 2006, 03:57 AM

Anubisgirl said:
The bad thing about humans wanting rights for their animals, is that Animals can't express themselves like humans, nor are they as attached to a single being for their entire lives. It isn't coded into them. How many dogs bust out of the house or yard and go on a sex spree!? How many dogs do they 'run around with' during that freedom run? Would they leave their canine companion who they also try to get things on with at home while they go looking for love where the grass is greener?
Animals aren't as attached as humans are.

They are deeply coded for loyalty...moreso than humans in most regards. Humans are monogamous( and were not very good ones either!)...dogs arnt. That doesnt imply weak attachment instinct, just no absolute attachment where sex is concerned. Or food or affection.
But this proves my point. So loyal, they still always go home after 'working the neighborhood!' :lol:

SD

This post has been edited by Singing Dog on Apr 15 2006, 04:11 AM

Well put Singing Dog. They are very loyal creatures, possibly moreso than some humans are... No, Definitely more than some humans are... See people can do these things that dogs can't, and dogs are more than content with that. They could care less about inheriting a hundred thousand dollars, or someone's house. They care about losing their owner though, or the person they love. Tell me, if you lost a distant aunt and got a house out of it...Are you gonna feel very sad for long? You might have loved her, but you just got a house.

It seems that most of us at some time or another are embarrassed by the language that some other people in the community use in public. Like the often used American expression mother f**ker, that is an insult to almost every father or husband on this planet, but it used for entertainment in TV shows and in the movies. So what of something that is a little bit left of the mainstream of thought. Like most small minds any comment that gets a reaction is worth the effort. Just because we love our friends does not make us any different from the rest of the world it is just the perceived thought of something different that upsets people with very narrow minds.

I tend not to give too much credence to opinion of society as a whole. For the most part the average person is pretty uninformed about much of what goes on, and their opinions show that. I also don't get insulted too easily, I think that society has gotten so politically correct that you best not say anything in public because it's going to be an insult to someone. As for those two...just think about all the stupid things we all did as teenagers.

That's a given, that people are massively uninformed that is, or wrongly informed anyways. They don't quite realize the complexities of many of the things that allows cultures to be so varied. If it's atypical it's automatically something that should be outlawed. That in itself disturbs me. Even as a teenager, [lets say 18 for safety's sake] I was extraordinarily open to new ideas and concepts about anything really. Upon realizing who I was and what the community was like, I instantly opened up almost fully to new things everywhere. I think it's fair to say, Zoophilia opened more than one door to me. Maybe that should be something adressed to people, rather than being taught that uniformity opens those doors.