And state thet we either do not accept any sexual action towards animals, like abuse and fencehopping. Most out in the world do not know us, all they see of us are caught fencehoppers, or abused animals left back by sexual criminals.

Im not sure how comfortable I am with the spooning around of those labels. Especially when lumped in the same sentence. By definition, I am a fence hopper, I guess. If I meet a dog and often, its 'owners', and I get to be so lucky as to get to know the dog (I get to walk it, visit, etc) and somewhere in that relationship tug-o-war drifts into wrestling and that drifts into arousal and sexplay, am I a bad guy? If you 'have' your 'own' pal that you 'bought' , ultimately, to do as you please, do you think that you have (ok, here we go) the right to tell other people what they can and cant do with willing 'animals' that they befriend? Why is it I can play tag with a dog, and that is all well and good; but if he and I want to play beyond that, ive got to give it all up for the integrity of those who 'have' their 'own' dogs?
Yeah its true, people OWN dogs and other 'pets' and thats just the way it is. One mustn't commit a crime against someone elses PROPERTY. But according to many state laws 'owners' shouldnt be 'committing' sexual acts with 'their' 'pets' at all. (In the UK its LIFE in prison. 'Owner' or not.)
So exactly how does 'ownership' grant entitlement to have exclusive sex with 'your' animal? I'm not saying the 'owner' doesnt have the right and responsibility to care and look out for his/her pet. And Im not saying anyone should have sexual access to even MY willing dog. But Im not going to blame the newspaper boy for giving my dog a hand-job for all the woes of zoosexuals and beasts.

Well, hammering this sh*t out is all part of what this site is about.

ALL due respects. And Im damned serious about that! The greatest part about all of this is how much we ALL care about our 'animal' pals.

SD
I'm not advocating that people should be able to go fiddle around with any animal because they are 'into' it. But I do feel a little harshly judged for the great friendships I HAVE had with some dogs, that strayed into the sexual, and that I had to "fencehop" to be with. I "fencehop" a lot, (gasp!) with the VAST majority of the time of it being NON-sexually inclined. And when I do it for SEXUAL (ooh there's that word!!) reasons, its because of previous experiences with a pal that Ive gotten to know, but 'belongs' to someone else.

I'm sorry, but it seems to me that your being 'caught' with your 'own' animal is as much a threat to my loving experiences with the individuals i meet, as apparently my 'acts' are for you.

I know this is a dicey issue, but please, lets not start spooning around lables as if there is only a few types. Many situations are unique, and Loving, even if outside the realms of "ownership." Im not saying I have 'right' to access 'your' animal. But i find the 'ownership' excuse just as specious. If you invoke 'love', so can I. And I mean it as much as you. The time I spend in 'sex' with a dog that I do pet beyond the flank, is so minimal compared to the time that we do so many other things that Im more than a little offended by the blanket term "fence-hop". And then in the same sentence you talk about the "abused animals left back by sexual criminals."

The nature of how we treat and respect other animals is the prime issue for me. Not your efforts to gain recognition for your sexuality.

Sigh...nuff said

SD

This post has been edited by Singing Dog on Mar 29 2006, 11:59 AM

DANG!! :pinch:

I apologize for some of the tone of my last post. It was in the wee hours of the morning and then the Forum took out its moment to 'optimize'. I ALMOST always type up my FEELINGS first, then stop, think and edit. Damned if I didnt only post it, but then lost the editing privelege when the site went off-line. So, please, accept my point as is, but accept my apology for the attitude.
(Boy, let THIS be a lesson for me and those who meet my fate!)
Looking over the thread again, I felt it important to add a point relating to this fine quote as a means to refine my point one last time.

"LASTLY: Their are two types of people in the world of bestiality. There are the Animal Lovers, the Lovers of Animals, and there are Animal Abusers."

Certain we are of the very last type. A pox be upon them.

Regards the rest; I think I see the point being made that:

All Lovers of Animals are Animal Lovers.
But not all Animal Lovers are Lovers of Animals.

Thats Right. I agree.
But some of us are. :heart:

:huh: Huh? Yeah its a little circular. :wacko: But once you rinse it off it says;
Hey! Its not totally black and white, there are many varied situations out here!
Even if you disagree, I think its worth a ponder.
You sure have set me to a ponderin'. :thinking: Thankyou!

:clover: :heart: and :fool: to ya!

Singing Dog

This post has been edited by Singing Dog on Mar 29 2006, 01:48 PM

I am so sorry if this statement offended anyone, that was not am attempt. I too wish I could go back and change that. I got caught up in the moment. I had just read a story about a fence hopper that not only got caught, but the animal that he was with had to be put down due to severe internal injuries.

Again, I am sorry if anyone was offended.

Please forgive me.

Very thought provoking from both of you. A little emotion does no harm if taken the right way and is not disrespectful.

I give you both a 10 for effort & sincerity!

With all due respects to all concerned, I mean not to offend anyone with my statements and or beliefs that follow.

Well that’s easy, My Knowledge and Experience is limited to Equines and Canines. I have nothing against Bovine, Bison or any other of natures living creatures, but I can only speak of that which I know.


I do not believe that all fence hoppers are animal abusers. Nor do I believe that all fence hoppers are Bad. Some do believe that what they feel is love toward their prospective partner. I am not here to dispute that believe nor will I dispute that believe.

But I will ask this,

1, Do you care for them?
2, Do you care for their feelings?
3, Do you respect them?
4, Do you respect the Animals right to say No?
5, Do you go out if you way not to hurt or injure them?
6, Do you bond with them?

If you have answered yes to these questions, then you are not an Animal Abuser, You are an Animal Lover. And yes it is possible to be An Animal Lover without being a Lover of Animals.

No your acts dont offend me.

Yes I do believe that if an owner of an animal is caught loving one of his animals, he can get into some serious trouble. But the chances of him or her getting caught goes down because they tend to control the area around them a little better.

I believe that when fence hoppers are caught loving animals, they tend to get into more trouble then an animal owner getting caught doing the same thing for the simple reason that the outside world believes that not only the animal was abused but so where the rights of the animal’s Owner.

I do not agree with the outside world, but that is there Belief, and we all know that no one is perfect.

I do not believe that all fence hoppers are bad, Nor do I believe that all fence hoppers are Animal Abusers. All I am saying is that they are taking a grater risk at getting caught. The outside world just dose not understand us. They look at us Animal Lovers, Lovers of Animals and Animal Abusers under the same light. I fear till we as Animal Lovers can separate ourselves from the Animal Abusers of the world we will never win our Fight for Acceptances.

I hope that I did not offend anyone here with this statement, these are my Opinions and as such is open for debate.

So, by all means, if you agree with me, post a reply, tell me why. If you disagree with me, post a reply, tell me why. I am open minded to new ideas and I look forward to hearing them. I believe that the mind is like a parachute, unless it is open, it dose no good to have it.

So weather you agree or disagree, Lets debate.

This post has been edited by racoolman on Mar 29 2006, 07:29 PM

thank you for the insight

I was not offended, don't change a thing......and thank you for this Topic ^_^

Fencehopping is bad, what do you need to apologize?

Animal keepers do not keep their animals as a fre service for those who just go for amusement, even if they manage not to hurt the animal. They are the ones to apologize for the bad omen the give us all. Each discovered case of fencehopping, no matter if the intruder gets caught or not, raise 10.000's against us.
There are some folks among animal lovers who work hard to make the public understand us, and open their minds. It is a hard work, and only small steps can be taken. Fencehoppers destoy in minutes what we make in years.

Racool,
Well Im glad I didnt post the sampler. Its been the entire "Fence Hoppers Unite" thread and few hundred thoughts later (or few thousand, it depends how you index them). I just about :bad: when I read what happened with those mares. I also was admittedly clueless about how sociopathically thoughtless some "fence-hoppers" are. Not the out and out sadistic abusers who hurt those mares, :( but just those arrogant self described fence hopping jamokes who are so selfish and self-centered that apparently evolution (via "Hot lead Poisoning" or a horse-shoe impression on their foreheads) is going to take them 'out' of the 'game'. ( :pinch: oh thats a bad pun)


Please read my post at that thread. Im still interested in exploring aspects of the subject, but consider me wizened. Its been a steep learning curve, one might say 'epic'.(To our viewers at home: I dont recommend you read the whole Fence Hoppers Unite thread in one sitting) :blink:

I concur <(so many bad zoo puns appear when you are tired!) :wacko: with the last posts, you neednt apologize.

Thanx Racoolman,

And many thanks to rololover for recognizing our process. :heart:

Singing Dog ^_^

PS For posterity Ive decided to post this 'reply' on your thread.

PSS! This was my 100th post! I can vote! :sorcerer:

This post has been edited by Singing Dog on Mar 30 2006, 01:50 PM

Attached Image ( Click on thumbnail to view full size image )

At first I was not going to comment publically on the fencehopping issue in this thread, since I thought 99.99% of everything Racoolman wrote in the Rules of Engagement was very well said, and I did not wish to distract from those really well-composed thoughts. But since the subject of fencehopping was brought up in this thread, I'd like to say how I feel about it.

The issue of wheter fencehopping is okay or not, is not a black and white and simple issue in my book. Fencehopping can be really bad, but fencehopping can also be good IMHO. I probably have a lot of you against me, just by saying this.

A lot of what I find important is mentioned in my post in this thread: http://www.beastforum.com/showtopic-62417.html

It's about my views on what is important when you are being intimate with cattle. It's all about respect, affection, care, patience. All of this applies, wheter you own the animals or not. The wellbeing of the animals must always come in the first place.

I feel fencehopping is bad anytime the fencehopper is breaking any of the other Rules of Engagement: Quickies, Relationships, Time, Rejection or Objection, Caring, Bonding. I feel fencehopping is also bad when the owner of the animal sees the animal as part of their family or valued friend, because that animal will be attached to their owner in a way that we should not interfere with.

But not all animals are kept by owners who sees them as part of their family. The animals may not be badly kept as such, even though in my opinion, they often are.

To a lot of farmers, cows are just part of their income, and if the milk-cows don't produce enough milk, they are being sent to slaughter. Other cows only purpose is to grow as fast as possible, to become meat. No one misses them, no one cares about them as individuals.

It is the same with horses. Some people has like 15-20 horses in huge pastures. The horses are never groomed, no one rides them or trains them. Someone comes to fill up their water and check the fences now and then. The horses are there only for grazing, and then they get sent to be slaughtered.

Animals like this, who does not have any emotional attachment to any human, will only benefit from having careful, sensible people coming to spend time and interract with them, if it is done carefully, so the horses/cows will trust and enjoy the company of the people visiting them.

If no one else really cares about the animals, I feel it is only good if someone who is kind and caring can come and be nice to them.

Never fencehop for a quickie, never fencehop just for sex. Only fencehop to form long-lasting relationships with the animals, and come back to make sure they are doing well, as often as possible. Take care of the animals, even if they are not yours. Of course, this would mean that only sensible and respectful people are allowed to fencehop.

It's also important to only fencehop in really safe places. If there is no building in sight, if the pasture is surrounded with forest, if the fence goes into the forest, etc. Since the cows and horses often enjoy to be inside among the trees, those places are safer than other places. Fencehopping should never be done where there is a public road, or a house right next to the pasture.

I have never fencehopped in a place where it would be illegal to be, because that would be wrong IMO. And even so, I have preferred to be in the pastures where public footpaths are leading right through, or where there would be stone-age or bronze-age graves inside the pastures, the owner of the animals does not think it is strange that there are people visiting the graves, since usually those places have steps leading over the fence, so that tourists can go inside the pastures to look at the graves, even when there are animals there.

99% of the times I've fencehopped, it has only been to interract with the animals, to pet them, or scritch them. Occassionaly, I would also pleasure them by giving oral, or by fingering them. I've never had intercourse while fencehopping, and would not do it. However, I am not against those who do have intercourse while fencehopping.

There are cow-loving people I know well IRL, and I have seen them interract with cows many times. They adore cows and value them just as highly as I do. I know they would never do anything the cows wouldn't be happy with. They fencehop to interract with the same individuals on a regular basis, and they are trusted by the cows. Often the fencehopping just leads to cuddling, but sometimes also to intercourse.

None of my cow-loving friends, including myself, support keeping cows for industrial purposes. Therefor it is also a little trickier for us to get a herd of cows, because we cannot expect to ever gain any kind of income from keeping cows.

Other people can easier buy a herd of calves, let them grow, and then sell them. They've had their pastures grazed, and they get income from it, and have no animals to worry about after selling them. I am not going to buy cows of my own until I know all things in my life situation is settled so that I can keep them for their entire life, hopefully 30+ years. In the meantime, I feel it is important that I can give happiness to cows during the unfairly short life-time they usually get, and I know most of my cow-loving RL friends feel the same about this issue.

The wellbeing of cows, is in my opinion, more important than anything else. If the wellbeing of cows (or horses for that matter) can be accomplished through fencehopping in safe places, then I see fencehopping as being a good thing.

99 % of what you mention woul dnot be what most here understand with fencehopping. If just petting and scratching makes a fencehopper, then many more of us are, together with a lot of non-zoos.
Most animal owners would take it easy when others scratch their horse behind the ears, when it leans over the fence.
They may dislike that you food ther animal, sometimes with good reason.

If you read here that some folks bring a bucket, and some other stuff, and go by night, feel sure that they do not use the bucket for collecting muschrooms or whatever. This is what most animal owners takes less easy.

Umm I have to step in and say that animals don't love or care about the sex, it's a reproductive thing for them and we humans just enjoy the animals for our own ends. Sry, you must be delusional if you think the dog or whatever somehow enjoys sex or whatever. And the sexual fullfilment is always one-sided.

I promised you, my cool friend, that I would sleep on my reply, and then what happens: Hambletonian bumps an associated thread, I see Singing dogs warning too late, and I,ve just waded through all 6 pages in one sitting. My brain is now mush, and this is the most difficult post I've tackled.

First, let me point my own finger at myself and cry "Hypocrisy!" to save you all the trouble.
Fence hopping seems to be the controversial meat of this thread, but as always, definitions can be rather grey as we've heard. For simplicity I'm taking the literal definition - going onto another's property and interacting with their livestock, whether sexually or not. I have to exclude Svansfall's situation as apparently this would not be trespass, and therefore not a crime, in Sweden. Remind me never to buy property in Sweden.
I am against it, and I have done it.
For all the reasons already stated elsewhere, it is wrong.
For my part I fell in love with the entire equine species literally overnight and have never recovered, I'm happy to say. I gazed at them in fields in awe & wonder, imagining what their coats must feel like. Initially, it was a matter of slipping through the wire when they were just out of reach to stroke them, without anything sexual occuring to me. It slowly grew, until I found myself walking 3 miles at 3-30 am hoping to see a mating in a herd of flea-bitten gipsy ponies (and I did). I knew I was in great danger, but the attraction was too strong. I also knew it was wrong - I was trespassing, and the animals weren't mine, but told myself I would do no harm. I was lucky. I didn't get hurt or caught. But I can't agree with Svansfall. You can't say "only sensible and respectful people are allowed to fencehop". Either it's right or it's wrong. And it's wrong.
I have been lucky enough to have my own horses for 40 years now, but I fear that if I was in that situation again, with no equine contact, the lure would be too strong again. But it's still wrong. I believe we must dis-associate ourselves from fence hoppers. The only hope we have of any of our activities being accepted by the public is of a little sexual involvement with our own pets in private.
I think the public is totally unaware of the size of the "problem", as they would see it, as regards the numbers of us, and I think we should keep it that way. Fortunately, we are regarded as an amusing minority - increasingly comedians make jokes about sex with animals, and this is good. It is not the case with child abuse, so don't lets rock the boat. If they realise how many of us there are they will recoil in shock and horror, and we will suffer a serious backlash. This phrase "Fight for Acceptance" bothers me. If we are to make any progress it will be gradual, by stealth. A full frontal assault will cause an earthquake.

My only other comment :clapping: concerns animal sharing, and I have to disagree with your rule. You may feel an exclusive bond with your animal, and so do I with mine, but although your pet undoubtedly develops a deep love for you, I can't agree that your animal will see this as exclusive. In nature dogs and horses do not bond exclusively to one mate. A mare or bitch in heat will accept almost any male, and a dog or stallion will serve any female who will accept him. Therefore, I would have no problem sharing my beloved (great word!) with someone who the animal trusted and liked. I believe dogs and horses would be happy with any number of lovers if the circumstances were right, even if that special bond was missing.

Last line - I think your "Rules of Engagement" (if amended slightly) are a great ideal to strive for. I'm not so sure many of us can always measure up, but we'll try!

Thanks for a great subject.

rololover

Oh, yes, and congrats on your 100 Singing Dog! :clapping:

Sorry, don't want to monopolise, but i've just seen your reply Hmmmmmmm (did I miss one?)

What an extraordinary statement! How absurd to say that dogs & horses have no interest in sex, and are only concerned with reproduction. Exactly the opposite! They are driven to sex by hormone fuelled lust, just like us. They know nothing of the consequences of their actions, they have had no biology lessons, they just know it feels great!

I'll go now.