Two points I didn't include in the previous post:

1) Come up with nonzoo reasons for your public official, cause or group support or opposition and tell everyone you know. If there is a discussion of zoo issues, do ask what others think and WHY, and why and why. If you discuss one of the court cases or such why is the crime so bad/ not so bad or the punishment too harsh or too lenient?

2) "Animals can't consent." Red herring. Specious. In what aspects of an animal's life under human influence is consent important? Life and death, health care, breeding or not, working, racing, use for food production, surgical alteration, or any aspect? Where else is consent raised? Never and nowhere - except sex with humans. What is important is humane and considerate care and interaction. We argue that the animals can and do consent or refuse, and we are obligated to respect their choices. If consent is an issue, then you need to ask where else is an animal's ability to consent important? Humans use animals all the time in all sorts of ways and "consenting" is never part of the equation - only if the use is harmful, cruel or inhumane. So that is the real issue - are we kind, humane and ethical? Most people will not like the logical course following "consent" as a criterion- as it changes EVERYTHING about how we keep and interect with animals, and will be hard pressed to explain in what way the dog humping you or getting a BJ is harmful.
Yes, they can't tell when they are being hurt or treated cruelly - and that is where the issue needs to be addressed.

I think a big part of the complexity of this subject actually arises from the dominant ideas of how Love, Relationship, and Identity are perceived in this culture. I'll spare us the love and relationship ones. Love and Relationships are experienced both personally and publicly. But Identity is purely public. That is; its meaning is constructed only by its relationship to how others perceive us. In the West (and spreading like wildfire across to the last corners of the planet) Identity is highly tied in with our sense of self and self esteem. It seems, generally speaking, that many of us in Western Culture only feel validated by public approval; by acceptance of our identity. G Gordon Liddy (yes Im going to quote him here!) when asked once how he thought people worked answered:

"What people think, they do; what they do, they become."

While I dont think thats the whole story of human nature in a nutshell, it does give us a windowview into how many (most?) people believe that of themselves. "If I have powerful feelings for my animal pal that even have sexual shades to them, and sometimes as a result I have sexual relations with my willing pal, this means I AM a Beast or a Zoo. If I AM that, I need my community to support that aspect of my identity. For without that support my identity and thus my essential self is denied and is defined as "unacceptable."

I think thats the heart of what Im trying to say; too many people are committed to their identity because they(we?) have been taught that existential social value: "Without Identity your nuthin' kid! If you wanna 'Be' 'Somebody'...you gotta 'Make' yourself seen and heard!"

As much as anybody those are the values that Ive been soaking in all my life. Fortunately, "being" "gay" and zoobeastish (that last term is sufficiently vague not to need quote marks) and a bit of a quirky crack-pot, Ive struggled with this issue profoundly. Ive alway wanted to be accepted in the whole hearted manner of all my worldly peers, but I would have to endure a terrible amount of work, emotional havoc, heroics, loss of relations, abuse, and so on just to approach what they do and are accepted for everyday.

Rather the feeling I have arrived at is that I dont need to "Identify" to anyone, (or even to myself) much of my being. My sense of self does not rely on the approval of others. Nor does my sense of sexuality.
Because I could dearly fall in love with an animal pal, do I need name it..."Identify" it?
Because I feel arousal of my soul, heart and loins (the ache to merge into one) does it mean only that Im "Sexually Attracted to Animals"?
Because horsing(!) around with my dog friend ended up including (amongst all kinds of foolish fun) genital play and orgasm, that Im "Into" "Beastiality"?
Why do we do this to ourselves? Why do we need so badly the approval of others so we can approve of our own selves? Why do we need to always "Identify" our behavior even to ourselves?

Dont get me wrong, I dont want to or intend to abandon the support, empowerment and joy of identifying all together. Its great to "Identify" with you folks :wub: for example! And I love saying to myself "I DO love animals in a sexual way too!" (I get a boner just writing it!) But I dont want the sense that I Need to or Have to "Identify" my own feelings to myself or anyone or group to feel "right" about myself. I also get "aroused" petting a critter I'd never consider having sex with (such as a bunny) or feeling velvety moss or lying naked on warm rocks. Identification of these feelingsas sexual (having to say to oneself "gee Im turned on by lying on these rocks") would bring so much unnecessary baggage into them as to spoil them. So why should I do it even when I am sexually aroused when playing with my pal?
Why let G. Gordon Liddy right?
:stupid:

Ok enuff verbal.
:shutup:

Singing Dog....Pontificates again! :fool:

This post has been edited by Singing Dog on Mar 25 2006, 11:58 AM

one thing i personally think would really help would be to educate (other people) on the difference between most of the stuff you see in the media and the majority of the actual community.

most of the incidents you see plastered all over the 6 o'clock news are largely those who deserve to have the full weight of the law (and then some) dropped upon them, but in the typical fashion, the public lumps the entire community together under that thought.

for example, one of the big busts a couple months back (can't remember when exactly), all kinds of videos, including chickens and such, which, while its a good fantasy, i simply find unacceptable in real life, due to the harm/death it causes to the animal, and as i said, the public assume that all of us are like that, which is completely wrong, as as far as i can tell, those mentioned acts are considered wrong by most (if not all) in this community.

"one thing i personally think would really help would be to educate (other people) on the difference between most of the stuff you see in the media and the majority of the actual community."

Thats why Im a little hesitant on social identification but way hot on community identification. The issue I see arising with ever trying to educate society on the difference between those is that you automatically put yourself in the same category; just different. People who literally abuse animals (as you indicated; chickens and such) are just abusers. For them animals are a prop for their main trip: abuse. If I say anything I say, those arnt zoosexuals or beast people, they are just more abusers.

If I was ever "caught" in a dalliance with a dog. I dont want to have to raise my right hand and repeat some sort Zoo/Beast oath. " I am Zoosexual/ Beast Lover, I am not an abuser. I care for my animals...etc" It'd never wash. But, on the other hand saying something like:

"Well...umm...Hell Bob! (S)he was horny, I was horny...and I dont know...(s)he didnt mind, I didnt mind. YOU know how it can git, and I love that ol' boy/girl as much as Ive loved anyone. Lemme get you a beer and we can just forget all about this, its really nobodies business but my own anyway, just as yer sex life is yer own...and god only knows what REAL horrors you keep in that closet...c'mon!...c'mon!! Im only kiddin! Im not the first person and I wont be the last, and besides half of all men and god knows how many woman have had "extracurricular activities" with their pets, why Ben Franklin was 'very fonde" of his Newfoundlander and you know what fond meant in those days doncha? Thats right. Now let me get you that cold beer. "

With any hope after a coupla beers, Bob or whomever will think your alright after all and cave in and mention how he used to work on this farm and...

This topic, like all others involving a persons sexual practices, which are not a danger or harm, to ones self or others, is not a badge of honor, to be worn. It is not a soapbox to stand on, to proclaim ones position on any givin forum. Gay, Animal or what ever. People who feel that they are falling short of the norms or doing something wrong, weather they are aware of it or not, need the affermation of the public to justify their actions. This is to make them feel normal, to make them not out of the mainstream. If you are healthy and really (normal) you know what you are doing, is considered a little outside the box, or just wrong by most people. But who cares, remember, in most states oral sex with your wife or husband is illegal. Just check the books.............
This practice like any other that does not fit the norm of society, should not be force fed to the rest of the population. Just as we, as a part of society would never condone or accect, child molestation or sadomasacistic behavier towards an animal, we can't expect the majority of people to justify what we do. Enjoy yourself, by yourself or with others of like mind. But don't seek or demand the understanding of others, who can't or won't see this issue in the same light as you.

Well said, DiverDown20019. Very good first post. Hope to hear more from you. :clapping:

If we established a boundary line with people of what abuse was and a loving relationship with your animal is then people might listen. Until we do that people are going to continue to listen to the media this can be compared to people who own large reptiles if a reptile bites someones arm and tries to eat them it's going to be in the paper the very next day making it seem like all reptiles are terrible animals to have eventually leading to the ban of owning large reptiles and other animals.... this can also be compared to pit bulls who have always been made out to be looked at as fighting dogs when they really aren't. The media has made up myths about their jaws locking and other cruel things. The point I am trying to get at is though that we need to establish a boundary with the politicians and common people because if we don't and keep hiding it it's always going to be like this.