Hi Ponylove,

Yup! Once you see the patterns you are free! The one principle of good and evil and right and wrong I mentioned is incorporated into all the religious myths (do unto others as you would have them do unto you...etc.). All the other rules flow from this at first (eg: Thou shalt not kill). This is all done because it establishes legitimacy for the ground rules of the myth because it reinforces a principle everyone knows instinctively. Why do we "know" this? Simply put, creatures that obey this principle are able to develop cooperative communities and survive better than those who don't! Darwin at work!

Having used this trick to claim the moral high ground, religions begin distorting the rules for their own purposes! We laugh at the idea that muslim teenagers are promised 70 virgins in paradise, but don't look at all the crap our own religions support.

How did the Puritans violate "Thou shalt not kill" when they burned the poor boy Granger at the stake along with the animals he was accused of shagging? Easy, they just put on a rider to the rules. In the end the basic principles mean nothing and you have institutions like the Christian right supporting the most demented of cruelties. Whenever they need to justify something terrible they just rummage through all the scribblings of their myth makers and find a line like "if a man layeth with an animal he shall be put to death and thou shall kill the animal." If you control the myth, you have the authority of god and you control the peasants.

And why does organized religion turn a blind eye to animal suffering? Easy, if you start treating animals decently you won't be able to exploit them for gold. Therefore they create the "plant, animal, man" myth, and why they hate Darwin so much! In the end they turn morality on its head. To me, most religions are simply used by their heirarchy to mask greed, power mongering, and all the other vices of man. How many more examples do we need to see before we admit this?

I have posted this reasoning elsewhere and religious zealots have challenged me with nothing better than "you are disgusting" or "god will get you". They call it "faith" because you can't reason with it! We laugh at the ancient myth like the Roman gods, but no one dare challege the modern ones.

Are there spiritual powers and forces we don't understand? Maybe so, but they have little or nothing to do with most the religious myths. I think the Tibetans had it close to right with their respect for all life, but their myth is almost wiped out now. Onward Christian soldiers!

OZ

Actually, as a once religious person, I found that you can be much more 'moral' if you use the central ideas of most major religions, but throw away all the crap. Basically, if you "do unto others as you would have done unto you" (bad paraphrase) you end up with basically a very surprisingly moral world where you can't steal, can't carpet bomb, can't hurt anyone (man or beast) probably even have a hard time eating an animal... It's quite amazing the loopholes you can find when religious texts are full of hundreds of pages of other crap...

OZ,

I basically agree with you. I feel religion had started as a way to explain the unexplainable.

I feel, throughout time, people have high-jacked religion to impose their personal moral judgments on its followers. I guess it all comes down to money, power, and greed.

But one other interesting thought from the Darwin theory, is: "The strong survive". As animals evolve, the weak or sick don't stick around long. Conquer or be conquered. I had wondered if our aggression as humans is a throwback to the survival of the fittest thought. If our instinct is first to insure that our species survives, via dominance and reproduction, I can see were war is justifiable, but not morally acceptable.

In the animal world, there seems to be an almost perfect balance. I say almost because creatures do evolve and the world does change (entropy I guess). Baring environment changes, man has upset that partial imbalance.

What this has to do with man procreating with beast, well ....

Here's some interesting facts to throw at people if they're flaming you for being a zoo, but only use it as a smoke cover to make your escape, it's ill advised to use these as reasons, they're logic busters.

1.) Interspecies breeding goes on all the time and some of it because of human intervention. Without it, we wouldn't have mules (one of the Ceasars of Rome was actually came from a mule breeding family).

2.) Nature isn't always a good thing to gauge our own actions by. If we used the bottle-nosed dolphin, then beastiality would be more common place (male bottle-nosed dolphins will poke their naughty bits into other creatures- turtles, sharks, eels- and even other dolphins) along with sex slaves (They also form gangs and kidnap females to be their sex slaves.) (From the book "A Tiger in the Bedroom" by Katherine Gould).


Why am I an equine devotee? I owe horses my psychological health, plain and simple. I wouldn't mate with a mare, unless I was a stallion and if you know any anthro-mares, don't hold me back (I'm furry as well). Considering sex doesn't have much meaning with me, mating a mare doesn't interest me, except in the name of equine sexuality liberation. *Holds up a sign saying: "Liberate equine sexuality!"*

Ponylove,

That was a ballsy thing to say here! You have my admiration. I will add that I agree with you. If I could live my life over and I had the choice of living it with zoophilic desires or without, I'd pick without.

I can't say if I chose this lifestyle but I have it and I have to deal with it.

All the best,

Grevy

You guys are making some good points and so I will go a bit deeper into how I see things to answer the points you raise.

First let me say that our brains are like computers with ROM, RAM, and Memory. The ROM is the built in knowledge that is there from the beginning and unchangable. In a computer it tells the CPU how to read enough of the nonvolatile memory (disk system tracks) to boot up the operating system. In a new born foal it tells him how to get to his feet and find his mother's tits. In a mother it tells her how to take care of her newborne, etc. We have long realized that later learned experiences are put into RAM and then long term memory if they are important.

Our ROMs come with "knowledge" that we get from our genes. This knowledge is designed to give us a head start on survival and to react to situations we have never encountered before. The rule "Do unto others" is in our ROM because it will allow us to cooperate with others of our gene pool to assure mutual survival.

The next big concept to grasp is that we as individuals are not the really complete things. We are a mechanism our genes use to assure their continuation, and each generation represents a possible adjustment in strategy. Think of us as disposable mechanisms to our genes. We are just the latest models they have produced.

Gene patterns are in a continual battle for survival. Now comes the concept of "The Strongest Survive". That is most true of the genes, not the individuals. A very powerful person or animal who cannot form cooperative relationships with mates and peers is all alone in the world and will not be likely to pass along his genes as well as cooperative creatures do.

It used to be thought that gene mutations were random events that happen all the time, but it has now been shown that organisms mutate their genes much more rapidly when under stress, and even that these mutations are not random at all. Some bacteria that have been unchanged for millions of years have now mutated so they are not only resistant to penecilin, but can actually digest it!

WAR. We used to think that only man had wars, because it seemed to counter the instinct to "Do unto others". Now we know that pods of dolphins have wars as do ants and even chimps. This usually happens when the [SPAM] have been split away from each other enough that they represent at least slightly different gene pools, and it is accelerated when they are under stress.

Both Germany and Japan launched WWII invasions because they wanted more resources for their gene pools (read cultures). Listen to Hitler's early speeches about "Superior Blood" and you will see what I mean (Nazism was another religious myth). Both countries were under stress. Germany was suffering economic stress and Japan was over crowded, and both lacked natural resources.

It is becoming more evident all the time that somehow we are able to take learned things out of our memory and encode them into inherent knowledge for our children. The process is clearly not perfect, but it is not at all random either. We have all noticed how quickly youth pick up skills that were hard for their parents.

For example, why is cannibalism almost always taboo, even for tribes and cultures that are at war. Why not eat the enemy? The reason turns out to be a nasty little prion (the same mechanism as causes "mad cow disease"). It has been found to ravage the few tribes that practice cannibalism. The mechanism in cows came from feeding ground up cows back to other cows, and in cannibals it is analogous. The top-down food chain of nature aviods passing these warped protiens around. Therefore most genes imparted the knowledge that "cannibalism is taboo". This taboo plays with "Do unto others" to tell us that we should be good to our family first, then our neighbors, then our larger communities. This is the order of genetic "closeness".

SEX. So, how does this all this play into why we tend to feel abnormal and people tend to see us as bad? The answer is that everyone's genes wants them to procreate, so anything that doesn't make more babies is "known" to be bad. That is why the religious myth beleivers say with such conviction that they just know what we do is terrible! Adultry is wrong because it takes support away from the offsring that are needed to keep the genes going. Thus the "Family Values" rhetoric that rings such a bell with right wing Christian true believers.

They feel it is wrong and their myth keepers have already given them some scribblings to prove it all. In otherwords, religions are often formed out of a desire to explain our ROM "knowledge". Then the religious leaders go on to enrich themselves by further manipulating it all.

Unfortunately our genes have not yet "learned" about over loading our planet because technology has protected us from much of the stress that would otherwise be on us already. Our only ROM response is war, and in the nuclear age that is a very bad idea if your genes want to stay connected in strands longer than a few molecules.

Species that have been through this regularly, like wolves, have built in mechanisms for preventing overcrowding. If hunting is good, the two or even three most dominant pairs may breed, but as it gets worse only the alpha pair may breed and even they may go sterile.

Cross Species Cooperation (Symbiotic Relationships):
One of the most amazing behaviors passed in some creatures ROM "knowledge" is how to cooperate with other species. Dogs and Horses have this "knowledge" that working with humans can be a good survival strategy. Wolves and ravens do the same thing with raven flocks attaching themselves to wolf packs and acting as spotters. Even some predatory fish have such relationships with cleaner fish. The cleaner fish "know" they can go into the mouths of these predators with total trust.

Thus we zoos are most prone to see symbiotic species as potential lovers. That is one reason why 99% of all zoo acts are with dogs and horses and a few other domestic animals. We in fact represent a good trend if our genes are going to avoid suicide as do the gays and other nonreproducers. It is entirely possible that zoo behavior will turn out to be a response of our genes to the stresses of overcrowding. You can tell many zoos express distain for crowded areas like cities.

In summary, religion is a way of myth telling to explain things people feel about what is right and wrong. Unfortunately it legitamizes prejudices that have nothing to do with true kindness. Many great thinkers have come to the concusion that the greatness of societies can be measured in the way they treat animals. In otherwords, our society moves beyond the pettiness of our genes ambitions.

In conclusion, I am the way I am because I am very lucky! (I warned you it was a complex subject)

OZ

A complex subject posted well...thank you, OZ!

OZ, or anyone reading

Well that was a mouth full OZ.

Basically I agree with your premise. Genes do mutate randomly, and perhaps the direction of a mutation can be altered by the environment.

Of course it is all about genes like you said. That's the reason way everything is, is not, what will be, and what will not be. This is a very interesting subject to read about with respect to evolution. The tricks nature can play. Amazing.

You have seen the plots of the population curve no doubt. Your point about a self population correction mode I believe is true. Diseases are one, dissolution of the family, electing not to have kids, and yes, fucking animals??. Never looked it quite that way, but when someone gets on the soap box about world population, I'll just reply, Hey, I am dong my part, I have relations with animas not humans. I guess Bush uses bombs. Maybe I should get a tax credit.

Just another though for you about genes, probabilities, and mutations. Eventually, given enough people fucking animals, that eventually, something will mutate permitting a fetus to grow. They can do it in a lab, why not nature? I would love to have a Centaur, or better yet to produce one.

About your ROM and some RAM (animals) verses some ROM and RAM (programmable memory) for humans. If you have ever seen the movie KPAX. It has a very interesting line in it. Towards the end of the movie, an earth person had asked the alien, "well how do your people know the difference between right and wrong than?" The alien replied to the earth person in a matter of fact way" Well, every being in the universe is born with that knowledge." I believe that.

Hi PonyLove,

You cracked me up with your idea about zoos getting a tax break! I think it will be a while before the Bush administration goes for that idea!

The one really important thing I forgot to mention about religious myths is the most obvious, they all tell you that you are not really going to die! Big seller that one! People will over look a lot of inconsistency and dubious stuff before they give up on that idea.

I know my philosophy is rather complex, but it all fits the known facts. It is the general conclusion that science is coming to, and that is why the Christian right fights Darwinism so hard.

OZ

Ponylove

I agree with what you said about if enought people [EMAIL REMOVED - USE THE PRIVATE MESSAGE SYSTEM];ing animals, that over time mutation/gene evolution will happen. Like you i would also love to able to produce a draft foal. And if that did happen the f!@#ed up goverment would find away to get involved some way to make money from the mutations/gene evolution even though the goverenment collects enough money the way it is already.


Argius ~__/>

Wow, what an interesting question... I've never thought about it before, it's just always been there. At first I found the furry community and identified with it more closely than I ever have with the rest of the world.

I can't think of any reason that isn't more of a spiritual thing for me, so... I suppose the Gods make you the way you are for a reason. Just as some people feel normal with people of the same sex, it just "clicks". Like when you find your own personal religion, and it "clicks" in your mind and just feels right. ^_^

A friend and I have found that our very similar experiences early in life may be a key factor in why we are attracted to animals. I believe that in our early childhood when our brains were still growing we could have been exposed to pheromones from a certain animal tricking our brains into thinking that we are attracted to them..... I know a horse’s pheromones are very similar to those produced by a human so it would probably have a big effect on setting our mental picture of what we find attractive especially if it was at a stage in our lives when our brains were still developing or growing. both me and my friend had an experience with a mare when we were around the same age, and in my case I know now the mare I met was in heat. When I came in contact with this animal I had a very strong urge to just get close to her. My friend said he experienced basically the same feelings toward the mare he met. I know that even as adults our brains are very sensitive to pheromones. I think that when we were younger (before we developed an attraction to the opposite sex) we were exposed to the pheromones of a certain species besides our own, and we associated that species with sexual attraction. When everyone else was just starting to gradually become attracted to the opposite/same sex, we had already been exposed to that kind of attraction … just not with humans….


Just my theory on the subject.

This post has been edited by Stripes on Sep 7 2005, 06:29 PM

I think its natural. Everyone would do this unless they are trained away from it. As with emotional love. Many think they know or have known it, but in reality, few have. If we grew up unhindered, we'd be much more promiscuous and superficial about enjoying animals as well as each the other.

Good point Rose. The Bonobo monkeys are totally unhibited sexually. Everybody in the band does something with everyone else, and guess what? They have the lowest incidence of violence of any monkey. Supression brings on hostility.

Why ask why? Just accept your fate on this earth, and move on. A vastly more important question: Why do men have nipples?

Edit: I don't mean to be changing the topic, it's just that, to me, the thought of questioning my zoo is a total non-issue. I've long ago accepted it for myself. For me, the question was never why, but when. And the answer to that question is on the floor behind me, whining because I'm not looking at him. :D

This post has been edited by Zeaux on Sep 8 2005, 07:39 AM