cunninglinguist: Thanks ;) Sadly i live in a different country but hey, wheres the difference - we are all humans arnt we? :)

---2---: Well i think the possibility that we and our love will be accepted some day is way bigger then that we will be able to prove that animals have a soul!
Sadly there are still to many closedminded people out there who cant and dont want to accept that there is something equal to the 'allmighte - perfect - unique - godchild' human <_<
As long as so many people still believe in the words of someone who 'learend' and got 'taught' to believe into a higher being we will allways run against walls... (NOTE: This wasnt ment as an attack towards any believers or members of a relegion!)

Gunslinger: Those controversy arnt happening everywhere. There are countrys where noone cares anymore if someone is gay or not or if he/she wants to marry another gay.
I might be only 24 but in my life i've seen countrys come and go, i've seen people get in charge and leave. When i was young it was 'bad' to be gay and getting called to be gay was one of the worsed things that could happen to someone. Now noone longer cares if he gets called like that, gay or not its normal, it became a part of the world.
There are so many things that became 'normal' im sure one day our love will also be 'normal' - though i still doubt that we will be completly accepted by the majority... ;)

Just to point out an inaccuracy, homosexuality has not always been illegal or despised by society, that is a fairly recent change in the history of humanity that because popular around the time of patriarchy.

If you look back to the ancient greek culture, you will find that the love of a young male was considered the most beautiful form and that the relationship (sexual and not) between a younger man and an older one was considered to be the most rewarding and desired. Men only married and had relations with their wives for the begetting of children.

If you look to the island of Lesbos in Greece, the word lesbian comes from there. It was well known to be a haven for women who were lovers together and honoured women loving women.

In modern times, the reason why male homosexuality was outlawed goes back to the time of Queen Victoria of England. She outlawed sex between men but not women because as she saw it, that could not possibly happen (women don't have penises).

As for sex with animals, well it has always happened. One of the reasons it was believed God destroyed Sodom was because the people had become so corrupt, they were considered to be having sexual relations with animals instead of each other. Its not the actual reason, but one that has been handed down. (Well, it all depends on whether you believe in god or not...but that's another issue.)


michelle

I have had many gay and lesbian freinds in my life, and some very good freinds, they knew where i stood, and that was it
i have never held any predjudice one sexuallity, race or religion, what you do or believe in is your business as long as it hurts no one else.
but in saying that we get to the acceptance of homosexuallity, yes it is great that they are being accepted, but it took some one to start it by standing up to be counted
my point is, who among us is willing to stand up and say what they are and that they wish to be accepted, and unfortunatly, untill someone does and faces the legal system and society.............it wont even look like changing
michelle in chainz, you come from the same country as me, just a queastion, would you consider telling your family and friends you were gay, (if that was the case)
and then would you tell them that you were a zoo

This post has been edited by MarcusBrutas on Mar 28 2005, 11:49 AM

it's very interesting, as a gay man, to read this thread. I think you answer your own questions just by the nature of your question itself. There is still a huge stigma associated with being gay, thus your using it to compare to another stimatized lifestyle... and hiv was immediately associated back to gays too -
if it is sooo popular to be gay -why is it that whenever a contraversial human rights question arises it immediately reverts back to gays???

once out of the woods, it seems the world forgets the struggle - stonewall became infamous (btw -it was NYC not SanFran) because it was a slaughter -we were beaten stoned and even killed -these men (and women) were the epitomy of courage -they took a stance and fought to the death -them against the world -but don't ever forget my friends -you don't get a medal for saving your own ass -you just get to see another day... the struggle was survival -not acceptance.

and that applies to hiv too. We watched our best friends die -and we watched our new best friends die too -and then again! and again! and again and again!@#! I'm not so sure you can realize the struggle we have endured -in fact I am certain that you can not -you have zero idea what we have endured -it's sometimes still even inconcievable to ourselves -and then there was the salt in the open wounds -before we could finish grieving we became the scapegoats -I can assure you that it was not fashionable to be gay in the 80's -or even know a gay man -it was like leoparsy -it's so easy to kick a man when he is down... and once again we endured -the gay man is now the lowest hiv contracting minority in the world -but I am here to remind you of the cost...

-as of yet there are few witch hunts for zoos as it remains predominately behind closed doors -and so I ask you -are you sure you want to open those doors? are your willing to sustain the casulaties of war?

if you could prove that animals are people excpet they just carnt talk human then you could morally argue with the goverments and courts that its right.

Not in this lifetime..... :angry:

Honestly, people will always judge what they don't understand....I know that in the end everyone will find something that will make them happy. If the person and the animal is happy, why does it matter in the end?;)

It will never be legal. BTW the Stonewall INN incident happened in Greenwich Village in NYC NY. Not San Franscisco!

Er... you do realize how silly that is, right? Ancient Greece was far more patriarchical than modern civilization. Women were often treated as property (yes, there are exceptions, but exceptions do not make up a rule).

It's rather amusing to me to hear someone call today's society -- one of the most woman-friendly societies in known history -- a patriarchy. Maybe we still are, but only nominally. These days, it's women, for the most part, who are revered and worshipped as good and wholesome and perfect, and men who are seen as stupid and venal and unworthy. Doubt me? Go on any college campus and try to give a lecture on "men's rights." You may want to wear body armor...

No, while ancient Greece was far more tolerant of male homosexuality than modern society is, it isn't because it was somehow less patriarchical. In fact, if you read Plato or others of the era, you'll see that it's because the love of a man for a man was seen as morally superior to the love of a man for a woman. Because, in fact, in their eyes, women themselves were inferior -- put there primarily to make babies. Hardly a woman-friendly society.

On topic, people have always feared those who are different, so I don't frankly see this behavior as ever really "coming out of the closet." It may eventually become legal (don't hold your breath), but I really don't ever see society at large as accepting it. We're simply too deeply programmed to fear and hate what's different...

This post has been edited by atomx on Apr 1 2005, 09:32 AM

"I "use" animals as sex toys because I'm too lame to get myself a girlfriend......"


Better than being told that you are acting out because of being abused as a child.

The stuff people come up with to belittle our lifestyle is never flattering.

I don't think we'll ever see widespread acceptance. The best we can do is be there for one another.

Beastiality will never be made legal in developed counties. That's because animals are considered a lower species that needs to be protected. Our society doesn't sanction adults engaging in sexual intercourse with children, why would they sanction it with "dumb animals"? Legal, never. Homosexuality is different since its between consenting adults.

This post has been edited by Eagleclaw on Apr 29 2005, 05:43 PM

I don't think it will happen. :)

I 100% agree. Because an animal can not tell you "don't" or "no" means you are using an animal that can not tell you what they or don't like or do or don't want. I'm a female, if i'm having sex with a dog then by all rights he's having sex with me. He's following a basic primal urge to mate and i'm reaping the benefits. It's seen as sadistic and wrong. the difference between beast and zoo will never be fully realized because most people are too afraid of things in their own right, or because they hide behind God.

It's legal here in the Netherlands ^_^ (and several other 'developed' countries aswell) - as long as these conservative politicians don't get reminded they wanted to ban it I hope it'll stay that way. Sadly, the trend is to ban it in the few places where it is legal, not to 'unban' it in places where it isn't.

I think about this a lot. Every time someone compliments me at work, or on my abiltiies with children, or any number of things, I think how quickly they would forget those good traits if they knew what I really was.