:rock: :rock:
Ms Deelight, that was well said.

I am seeing information mixed with misinformation in many of these posts.
Many of the supposed "facts" are made by people without regards to all fof the truths.
Take a look at the aniti spay/neuter group on yahoo, and you will find more truth there.
First, spaying and/or neutering does _NOT_ always keep animals from wanting to roam. I had a neutered male dog who loved to wander, though he was obedient enough that he seldom strayed, other than to chase a rabbit or two.
I currently have a spayed Shepherd mix that is always trying to wander off, granted not far, but she seems to think the whole neighborhood is her domain.

It is true that many people adopt dogs for the wrong reasons.
I currently have a bitch who turned out to be less than ideal for a 2 year old child to have as a pet. Spaying her would not have made that part any different. She is a very active type dog, and was about 3 or 4 months old when I took her into my care. She is a bit less active, but only because she has grown partly out of puppyhood. My older spayed shepherd mix is just as active.

I have a neigbor that has 2 dogs, one of which had a litter of pups early this year. Both dogs get little action from their owner, and are outside all the time, night or day, rain or snow or whatever. The male has only a tree as a shelter.
I feel sorry for both of them, as I seldom see either getting any real attention.
Mine all sleep inside with me (no, not all of them on th bed). And they get good food in dishes.
Another neighbor feeds his dogs by tossing the food on the concrete walk in the back yard. This also means that the heifer calf, and now a doe goat, have access to the dogs food as well as their own.

I love my dogs, even though I sometimes yell at them. I try my best to keep my unspayed girl from getting bred, to avoid a new crop of puppies that could wind up as unwanted and in a shelter or even worse, Coyote food.

All of the dogs I have adopted were "unwanted" dogs for one reason or another. One was particularly well behaved, and simply unclaimed as a stray.
Yes, behavioral problems could start early on, and are often because the animals were not socialized, and had little interaction with their owners.
And it is sometimes amazing to see some of the dogs that wind up at shelters.
I have seen full blooded Borzoi, and one guy that I think was maybe a Shiloh Shepherd (biggest German Shepherd I ever saw). I adopted my full blooded Siberian Husky from that shelter years ago.

I will point out that many shelters will not allow an animal to be adopted unless spayed or neutered, others require a deposit or a signed "promise", and a few have no real requirements.

As you say, many people adopt a "cute" puppy, but when puppy gets bigger, and they have not bothered to train the dog at all, gets relegated to the backyeard, or worse, to a shelter where they may or may not get adopted.

Another thing some don't figure is the cost to feed. I am buying 100 pounds of dry dog food per month, and treats once in a while. This is for 3 medium sized dogs.
Medium being between 40 and 100 pounds.
And this is not counting what I have to buy for the goats and chickens...

Before adopting a dog, or other animal, consider the costs to keep them.
And adopt because you love the animal, not because you consider him/her a potential sex partner.
And never overdo it.
Near where I last lived in California, there was a woman who had an untold number of dogs. Some tended to escape from the big pen they were kept in, and I recall one time she tried to get me to adopt a couple of the younger ones. She said some of the big ones were killing the smaller ones. Could be in part because they were not fed well enough, and also mayhap due to not being well socialized either.
heck, my 3 get along pretty well considering, but the youngest girl does sometimes show a bit of food aggression towards the others, even though there is always plenty of food available. But at least this is very minor, and they have no aggression towards each other at night when we retire to the "bed quarters"...

Also keep in mind that it is sometimes difficult to find a place to live that will allow pets. Some only allow small animals (cats, teeny dogs and such), and many none at all. Much of this is due to people who have animals that are not taken care of, and often cause damage to the house/a[artment, and so on.

So be responsible if/when you adopt.



Steps off soap box now! :P

This post has been edited by cabron45 on Aug 30 2008, 09:40 PM

Which is because many people see preventing unwanted litters as the ultimate goal. If they have to downplay/ignore any negative side and/or amplify any positive to spay/neuter, they find it acceptable because they are "saving lives". It has gotten to where this misconceptions seem to be fact. Healthwise a more balanced perspective would show it really isn't necessary, especially for males and puppies. Behavioural issues aren't all solved either... sure some things are helped, but if you dont take the proper steps for training, obediance, and socializing nothing will be "fixed".

Something else interesting is the lack of any other type of birth control. There have been attempts, but I think spay/neuter is also about removing the sexual tendencies and "naughty bits". People dont want to think of their pets as beings with sexual needs, or perhaps they just dont want to deal with it... which I guess if the alternative was euthanisations, I guess it is ok. Just sucks the operation has to be done to live with us.

You Nailed it, Gryph...It IS about the naughty bits...and about how we regard the world as the domain of Humanity first and as my mother would've said..." De'il tak the heendmost..."...I suspect that for most humans, there's a sneaking little envy of the freedom that animals have to be themselves ( hence the jokes about " why does a dog lick himself so much? and so forth...) and I wonder if the " true believer " passion which some advocates of spay-neuter display really comes from a sour grapes POV...if you can't lick 'em, cut them off (or out)...I say this because, as MsDeelight( :heart: ) and Cabron, among others have pointed out, much of the PRO stance advocated by HSUS and PETA is based on flawed logic...the reasons cited are mostly not as successful as they would have us believe...and the CON side is mostly shouted down...

I cant stand people that think its abuse. Most of them are religious types who only know what their cults tell them. Asside from that as you can tell my alignment is non religious I will say that I was lucky enough to find somebody on the net who is in the next town 30 minutes away. She has the same feelings as I do towards our fellow 4 legged friends. Its very rare to find sombody who has the same feelings and views, especially in this politically controlled world where people would rather see an axe murderer get life in jail and zoophiles / beastials get death. Whats wrong with this world? As for people Ive told in person. None. On the internet 4. All who know and accept my views. One of these years I hope to get a place of my own where I can have a couple horses and dogs and have a huge brick wall with metal spikes on top surrounding the place. Im tired of neighbors being so damn close together when they sneeze you hear them like they were in your frontroom. Anyhow im going way off base here, sorry.

The other unfortunate thing is shes with a hugely jellous boyfriend and she has child. So untill hes out of the picture several years down the line were just email friends. *sighs*

It is quite amusing, the headlines in the local paper may read "Ninjas caught with pink samurai swords in war horse" The possibilities are endless. Missywolf, I know of a little jack russel newtered bitch, and when ever I stay over at this persons house she always likes to come and relieve a bit of tension, I never inserted a finger in her but she she klings onto my arm and rubs her intimate zone like crazy on my hand, you know when shes finished because she goes all stiff and pulls a funny face, it is really kind of sweet.
Any way, Nijas, happy banzai bonking to you :D

:wub: aww, that's sweet. But if the poor doggie tried that on any "normal" person, oh my! she'd be in trouble! :o

See and often people don't see that- female or male, altered or not- it may often times be the animal that starts it. And somehow by helping the poor fella out we are abusive. Oh boy. :rolleyes:

:devil2: :D The first time i had ever had sex was with a small pony we had that i brought into a false heat,I seen my dad bring a mare into false heat so he could breed her with our stud.And it worked.So i tried it with our little mare And wow was she ever hot when i slid my little cock into her.CAnt tell my age?So my sex like begain.
:beer: :rock:

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I know that cats go crazy when they are in heat. Sort of like that Cat Orgy episode of South Park.

These [SPAM] even have many vets brainwashed.
I call my mother very week, and mentioned that my girl has maybe started a false pregnancy.
Once I explained what it was, my mother kept saying I needed to get her spayed.
Seems many of the vets back in central NY say it should be done at 7 months of age.
yet the vets in the Rochester NY area said over a year old.
And the anti spay/neuter group I amd on points out that the benefits of s[paying and neuterining are far less than the benefits of not doing so, especially leaving the ovaries and/or testicles intact.
In other words, "fixing" by vasectomy or tying of fallopian tubes, or alternately, partial removal of the uterus leaving ovaries intact is a far better way is such must be done.
Sure, one will still have to deal with times of heat, and overly amorous attention by the males at times, but that's a small price for the real benefits.

"They" would have you beleive that spayed and neutered animals will live longer, and are less likely to develop cancer and so on. Not true. I have had both intact and spayed animals, and they seem to live about as long. In fact, my last dog, who was catrated at a bit over a year old, had a number of tumors, and would most likely have only lasted a year or so if he had not been hit by a truck and badly injured, leaving me to make the decision that it was kinder to just have him put to sleep at that time.

Anyway, so many people, my mother included, have simply been brainwashed by these [SPAM].

Evidently we have some high rollers that are advocating beastiality.

I posted a link in my thread: http://www.beastforum.com/showtopic-134548.html

i hate the term abuse also, but you cant really blame people who dont understand and are full of taboos. they just need to be educated... how? i dont know... :(

Good luck with that, tho'.
I asked several large and small animal vets about that, and they (thought I was strange) said the medical profession only does castration/ovariohistorectomy on dogs for health reasons, and why would I want otherwise? Said hormones cause cancer, and we only do it one way...... :pinch:

Health reasons?
Typical response by brainwashed vets. besides, it is big business with many vets to castrate and so on.
As for the hormone thing, how is it that human females need those hormones after a hystecetomy and/or menopause?
the general public is being lied to about the matter.

One older bitch that I adopted had evidently already been sopayed, but had a very fine neat scar, hard to see if one did not look close.
yet the vet who checked her (free checkup) after I adopted her claimed she was intact. Strange, she never came in heat in almost 4 years, and her vulva was atrophied the same as any spayed bitch I have even seen.
Rather than put her through an operation for something that was already done, I simply licensed her as intact.
Either the vet was blind or was looking to make more money, other than the shots I got for her.

But yes, it can be difficult to find a vet that will go along with leaving ovaries intact or doing only a vasectomy.
What we need is a list of possible vets.
I can see doing a vasectomy or partial hysterectomy or tubal ligation, but not the whole smash.